RE: Islam und andere "Merkwürdigkeiten"... | 25.01.2015 | 12:46

Haben Sie ganz herzlichen Dank für Ihren Beitrag.

RE: Katholischer Fundamentalismus | 20.01.2015 | 20:33

Zu Lefebvres Haltung zur Trennung von Religion und Staat, der Religionsfreiheit, oder gar dem zweiten Vatikanischen Konzil habe ich eine amerikanische Seite gefunden von Verteidigern des Bischofs Richard Nelson Williamson. Dieser war ein weiterer der vier von Lefebvre geweihten Bischöfe.

Sie beschreiben sich selbst folgendermassen: „A Traditional Catholic Forum that officially supports Bishop Williamson and the Resistance, and remains faithful to the mission of Archbishop Lefebvre

Auf drei Seiten führen sie die wichtigsten Zitate Lefebvres zusammen, die nur erhärten, was ich oben angeführt habe, und belegen, dass es sich bei ihm um eine stringente Haltung gehandelt hat und die sein gesamtes niedergeschriebenes Werk durchzieht.

Archbishop Lefebvre’s Greatest Quotes

107 years ago today, on November 29th, Marcel Lefebvre was born. He would later become an Archbishop, and was without a doubt the greatest defender of Tradition during the crisis in the Church following the Second Vatican Council. In honor of this occasion, here is a list of some of his greatest quotes. Enjoy!

In the Church there is no law or jurisdiction which can impose on a Christian the diminution of his faith. All the faithful can and should resist what interferes with their faith… If they are faced with an order putting their faith in danger of corruption, there is an overriding duty to disobey… It is because we judge that our faith is endangered by the post-conciliar reforms and tendencies, that we have the duty to disobey and keep Tradition. Let us add this, that the greatest service we can render to the Church and to the successor of Peter is to reject the reformed and liberal church… I am not of that religion, I do not accept that new religion. It is a liberal, modernist religion. Christians are divided… priests no longer know what to do; either they obey blindly what their superiors impose on them, and lose to some degree the faith, or they resist, but with the feeling of separating themselves from the Pope. Two religions confront each other; we are in a dramatic situation, it is impossible to avoid a choice.” (Archbishop Lefebvre, 1986, “Open Letter to Confused Catholics”)

I have never changed. I have preached and done what the Church has always taught. I have never changed what the Church said in the Council of Trent and at the First Vatican Council. So who has changed? It is the enemy, as Pope St. Pius X said, the enemy who is working within the Church because he wants the Church to be finished with her tradition.” (Archbishop Lefebvre, Homily, Venice, April 7, 1980)

If one day they shall excommunicate us because we remain faithful to these thesis, we shall consider ourselves excommunicated by Freemasonry.” (Archbishop Lefebvre, sermon given in 1978)

We are not of this new religion! We do not accept this new religion! We are of the religion of all time; we are of the Catholic religion. We are not of this “universal religion” as they call it today – this is not the Catholic religion any more. We are not of this liberal, modernist religion which has its own worship, its own priests, its own faith, its own catechisms, its own “ecumenical” Bible. We cannot accept these things. They are contrary to our Faith. It is an immense, immense pain for us, to think that we are in difficulty with Rome because of our faith! We are in a truly dramatic situation. We have to choose an appearance of disobedience – for the Holy Father cannot ask us to abandon our faith; it is impossible, impossible! We choose not to abandon our faith, for in that we cannot go wrong.” (Archbishop Lefebvre, Ordination Sermon, June 29, 1976)

Rome has lost the Faith, my dear friends. Rome is in apostasy. These are not words in the air. It is the truth. Rome is in apostasy… They have left the Church… This is sure, sure, sure.” (Archbishop Lefebvre, Retreat Conference, September 4, 1987)

The Novus Ordo Missae, even when said with piety and respect for the liturgical rules… is impregnated with the spirit of Protestantism. It bears within it a poison harmful to the faith.” (Archbishop Lefebvre, Open Letter to Confused Catholics, p.29)

“It’s very difficult to say, “This man is a Freemason,” “This man is a Freemason,” or “This man is a Freemason.” We don’t know. It’s very difficult. It is certain that there are some cardinals, some bishops, cardinals in the Curia, or monsignors or secretaries of congregations in Rome that are Freemasons. That is certain because the Freemasons themselves have said that. They have said that they have in their lodge some priests and bishops. It is certain that there are some cardinals and many monsignors in Rome who do the same work as the Freemasons; they have the same thinking, the same mind. Willebrandt is Prefect of the Secretariat for the Unity of Christians, and Archbishop Silvestrini is the first secretary of Cardinal Casaroli who is Secretary of State – and his right hand is Silvestrini. He is a great power in the Curia. He nominates all the nuncios in the world. He has a very great influence and he is probably a Freemason.” (Archbishop Lefebvre, 1986 interview, St. Michael’s Mission, Atlanta, GA)

“We know now with whom we have to deal. We know perfectly well that we are dealing with a “diabolical hand” which is located at Rome, and which is demanding, by obedience, the destruction of the Church! And this is why we have the right and the duty to refuse this obedience… I believe that I have the right to ask these gentlemen who present themselves in offices which were occupied by Cardinals… “Are you with the Catholic Church?” “Are you the Catholic Church?” “With whom am I dealing?” If I am dealing with someone who has a pact with Masonry, have I the right to speak with such a person? Have I the duty to listen to them and to obey them?” (Archbishop Lefebvre, 1978, Ordination Sermon, “Apologia Pro Marcel Lefebvre”, Vol. 2, p.209, Michael Davies)

“We are convinced of this, it is they who are wrong, who have changed course, who have broken with the Tradition of the Church, who have rushed into novilties, we are convinced of this. That is why we do not rejoin them and why we cannot work with them; we cannot collaborate with the people who depart from the spirit of the Church, from the Tradition of the Church. I think that it is that outlook that should guide us in our present situation. Let us not deceive ourselves by believing that these little breaking actions that are given on the right and on the left, in the excesses of the present situation, that we are seeing a complete return to Tradition. That is not true, that is not true! They remain always liberal minds. It is always the liberals who rule Rome, and they remain liberal. There is no rallying to these people. From the moment when we rally ourselves, this rallying will be the acceptance of the liberal principles. We cannot do this, even if certain appeasements are given us, certain satisfactions, certain recognitions, certain incardinations, which could even be offered to you eventually. But as long as one is dealing with people who have made this agreement with the devil, with liberal ideas, we cannot have any confidence. They will string us along little by little; they will try to catch us in their traps, as long as they have not let go of these false ideas. So, from my point of view, it is not a point of doing whatever one can. Those who would have a tendency to want to accept that will end up being recycled.” (Archbishop Lefebvre, December 13, 1984, Address to the priests of the French District)

“What could be clearer? We must [according to Rome] henceforth obey and be faithful to the Conciliar Church, no longer to the Catholic Church. Right there is our whole problem: we are suspended a divinis by the Conciliar Church, the Conciliar Church, to which we have no wish to belong! That Conciliar Church is a schismatic church because it breaks with the Catholic Church that has always been. It has its new dogmas, its new priesthood, its new institutions, its new worship… The Church that affirms such errors is at once schismatic and heretical. This Conciliar Church is, therefore, not Catholic. To whatever extent Pope, Bishops, priests, or the faithful adhere to this new church, they separate themselves from the Catholic Church.” (Archbishop Lefebvre, Reflections on his suspension a divinis, July 29, 1976)

“We would have to re-enter this Conciliar Church in order, supposedly, to make it Catholic. That is a complete illusion. It is not the subjects that make the superiors, but the superiors who make the subjects… Amongst the whole Roman curia, amongst all the world’s bishops who are progressives, I would have been completely swamped. I would have been able to do nothing… [As for the Pope appointing conservative bishops] I don’t think it is a true return to Tradition. Just as in a fight when the troops are going a little too far ahead and one holds them back, so they are slightly putting the brakes on the impulse of Vatican II because the supporters of the council are going to far… the supposedly conservative bishops are wholly supportive of the council and of the liturgical reforms… No, all of that is tactics, which you have to use in any fight. You have to avoid excesses… [Asked about signs of benevolence to Tradition] There are plenty of signs showing us that what you are talking about is simply exceptional and temporary… So I do not think it is opportune to try contacting Rome, I think we must still wait. Wait, unfortunately, for the situation to get still worse on their side. But up till now, they do not want to recognize the fact… That is why what can look like a concession is in reality merely a maneuver to separate us from the largest number of faithful possible. This is the perspective in which they seem to be always giving a little more and even going very far. We must absolutely convince our faithful that it is no more than a maneuver, that it is dangerous to put oneself into the hands of the conciliar bishops and Modernist Rome. It is the greatest danger threatening our people. If we have struggled for twenty years to avoid the conciliar errors, it was not in order, now, to put ourselves into the hands of those professing these errors. (Archbishop Lefebvre, Interview, Fideliter, 1989)

“The See of Peter and the posts of authority in Rome are being occupied by anti-Christs, the destruction of the Kingdom of Our Lord is being rapidly carried out even in His Mystical Body here below… This is what has brought down upon our hearts persecution by the Rome of the anti-Christs. This Rome, Modernist and Liberal, is carrying on its work on the destruction of the Kingdom of Our Lord, as Assisi and the confirmation of the liberal theses of Vatican on Religious Liberty prove…” (Archbishop Lefebvre, Letter to the future Bishops, Aug 29, 1987)

On the other hand, we have never wished to belong to this system which calls itself the Conciliar Church, and defines itself with the Novus Ordo Missæ, an ecumenism which leads to indifferentism and the laicization of all society.Yes, we have no
part, nullam partem habemus, with the pantheon of the religions of Assisi; our own excommunication by a decree of Your Eminence or of another Roman Congregation would only be the irrefutable proof of this.We ask for nothing better than to be declared out of communion with this adulterous spirit which has been blowing in the Church for the last 25 years; we ask for nothing better than to be declared outside of this impious communion of the ungodly.We believe in the One God, Our Lord Jesus Christ, with the Father and the Holy Ghost, and we will always remain faithful to His unique Spouse, the One Holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman Church.” (Archbishop Lefebvre, letter to Cardinal Gantin, July 6, 1988)

“Cardinal Ratzinger is against infallibility. The pope is against infallibility by his philosophical formation. Understand me rightly! – We are not against the pope insofar as he represents all the values of the Apostolic See which are unchanging, of the See of Peter, but we are against the pope insofar as he is a modernist who does not believe in his own infallibility, who practices ecumenism. Obviously, we are against the Conciliar Church which is virtually schismatic, even if they deny it. In practice, it is a Church virtually excommunicated because it is a Modernist Church. We are the ones that are excommunicated while and because we wish to remain Catholic, we wish to stay with the Catholic Pope and with the Catholic Church – that is the difference.” (Archbishop Lefebvre, Interview, One Year after the Consecrations, 1989)

“It is possible we may be obliged to believe this pope is not pope. For twenty years Mgr de Castro Mayer and I preferred to wait…I think we are waiting for the famous meeting in Assisi, if God allows it.” (Archbishop Lefebvre, Talk, March 30 and April 18, 1986, published in The Angelus, July 1986)

“We believe we can affirm, purely by internal and external criticism of Vatican II, i.e. by analyzing the texts and studying the Council’s ins and outs, that by turning its back on tradition and breaking with the Church of the past, it is a schismatic council.” (Archbishop Lefebvre, Le Figaro, August 4, 1976)

“So we are [to be] excommunicated by Modernists, by people who have been condemned by previous popes. So what can that really do? We are condemned by men who are themselves condemned…”( Archbishop Lefebvre, Press conference, Ecône, June 15 1988)

“And we must not waver for one moment either in not being with those who are in the process of betraying us. Some people are always admiring the grass in the neighbor’s field. Instead of looking to their friends, to the Church’s defenders, to those fighting on the battlefield, they look to our enemies on the other side. “After all, we must be charitable, we must be kind, we must not be divisive, after all, they are celebrating the Tridentine Mass, they are not as bad as everyone says” —but THEY ARE BETRAYING US —betraying us! They are shaking hands with the Church’s destroyers. They are shaking hands with people holding modernist and liberal ideas condemned by the Church. So they are doing the devil’s work.” (Archbishop Lefebvre, Address to his priests, Econe, 1990)

Archbishop Lefebvre, ora pro nobis!

(Heruntergeladen am 20.01.2015)

RE: Katholischer Fundamentalismus | 20.01.2015 | 20:31

Zuerst einmal möchte ich Sie bitten, damit aufzuhören, mich persönlich zu beleidigen, dies würde es mir enorm erleichtern, mich auf eine sachliche Auseinandersetzung mit Ihnen über das Thema einzulassen. Was muss man Ihnen in Ihrem Leben bereits angetan haben, dass Sie so viel Groll versprühen. Das was Sie vorbringen, mag schlüssig klingen, nur wird es widerlegt von jemandem, der Marcel Lefèbvre sehr nahe stand, und zwar einer der vier von ihm geweihten Bischöfe Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, der in der von ihm verfassten Biographie Lefebvres genau dies behauptet: BERNARD TISSIER DE MALLERAIS: Marcel Lefebvre. Die Biographie. Aus dem Französischen von Irmgard Haberstumpf. Sarto Verlag, Stuttgart 2008. 760 Seiten

Ich zitiere einen Absatz aus einem Artikel der Süddeutschen Zeitung: Politisch blieb das vertikale Denken ebenso wenig folgenlos. Sein eigener Vater wurde zwar 1941, nachdem er widerständigen Soldaten und Zivilisten im besetzten Frankreich geholfen hatte, "von der Gestapo festgenommen und inhaftiert", später dann zum Tod verurteilt. Er starb im Februar 1944 im Konzentrationslager Sonnenburg an den Spätfolgen einer Misshandlung. Lefebvre aber fand freundliche Worte für das Vichy-Regime. Pétain habe immerhin eine christliche Gesellschaftsordnung gutgeheißen, de Gaulle hingegen die "Bewegung für die katholische und christliche Ordnung zerschlagen". Schon in der streng nationalistischen, antidemokratischen und antisemitischen "Action française" hatte Lefebvre, so de Mallerais, einen "Kampf für die christliche Ordnung, die er selbst herbeisehnte" geortet.“

RE: Katholischer Fundamentalismus | 20.01.2015 | 20:27

Hab vielen Dank.

Ich kann Dir nur beipflichten, Austausch findet über sachliche Argumente statt. Jene, die bereit sind, dies zu tun, werden bei mir auf offene Ohren stoßen.

RE: Überwindet Ohnmacht und Fremdsteuerung! | 20.01.2015 | 20:26

Haben Sie außerordentlichen Dank für die Einblicke in Ihre Jugend und ihre Wahrnehmung des Umgangs Ihres Umfeldes mit Religion und die Schlussfolgerungen, die Sie für sich daraus gezogen haben. Ihre Worte verstehen es, die tieferen und verwobenen Empfindungen und Wahrnehmungen hinter den Ereignissen wiederzugeben. Was gibt es dem noch hinzuzufügen außer die Anmerkung, dass das Hoffnungsvollste an Ihrer Erzählung auch zugleich das Tragischste ist, die Geschichte einer Liebe, die allen von Menschen gesetzten Widrigkeiten zum Trotz zu entstehen imstande war, bevor ihr das Recht auf Fortbestand willkürlich entzogen wurde. Fanatismus ist eine unbeschreibliche Verschwendung von Lebenszeit, eine zum Himmel schreiende Verblendung und eine Vergewaltigung jeder menschlichen Vernunft, aber vermutlich speist sie sich aus selbst erfahrenem Unrecht. Ahnend, wer es gewesen sein könnte, wage ich es kaum, die Frage nach dem Täter zu stellen. Ach nein, zu einem Gedanken möchte ich doch noch etwas hinzufügen. Die Geschichte ihres Austausches mit Ihrem Onkel führt bei mir eine Erfahrung vor Augen, die mir das Leben permanent aufzwingt, das Verlieren von einst geschätzten Menschen, wenn man sich nicht mehr in vorgefertigte Schablonen pressen lässt. Ja, dass bereits eine minimale Erweiterung des Horizonts, das Erreichen einer neuen existenziellen Wahrnehmung unweigerlich dazu führt, langsam aber sicher aus einer Gemeinschaft herauszufallen, unabhängig davon, wie viel Wertschätzung sie immer noch erfährt. Bei mir hat es dazu geführt dass ich zunehmend meine progressiven Gedanken in meinem privaten Umfeld zurückhalte. Natürlich wird im aufgeklärten Westen niemand mehr für kontroverse Meinungen gesteinigt, nein, was geschieht, ist viel subtiler. Wenn sich die Existenz nicht in die eng gefasste Korsage einer Religion, Konfession oder jene eines eingetragenen Vereins pressen lässt, trifft man auf ohrenbetäubendes Schweigen.

RE: Überwindet Ohnmacht und Fremdsteuerung! | 19.01.2015 | 20:43

Ihre Frage hatte ich nicht dahingehend verstanden. Nun, die wohl bedeutendste Abwanderung in Richtung Sekte findet in der muslimischen Welt zur Zeit zum politischen Islam hin statt, dem Salafismus oder dem Neosalafismus der Muslimbruderschaft und vergleichbarem. Was wohl auch nicht selten stattfindet, ist eine Konversion zum Christentum, die allerdings aus Angst vor Repressalien meist geheim gehalten wird. Aber wie bereits gesagt, das wird sich mit dem Grad an Aufklärung auch in der muslimischen Welt ändern. Interessanterweise versucht das Haus Saud dem Fanatismus jetzt mit einer Hinwendung zum Sufismus zu begegnen, ausgerechnet dem Sufismus, der so lange vom Wahhabismus als unislamisch verteufelt und verfolgt wurde.

Zu Ihrer abschließenden Bemerkung: Möglicherweise stimmt dies in vielen Fällen, allein will ich die Hoffnung nicht aufgeben, dass Vernunft hier und da doch noch ihre Anhänger hat.

Seien Sie bestens gegrüßt.

RE: Katholischer Fundamentalismus | 19.01.2015 | 20:31

Hab vielen Dank,

ja, ich war damals auch verwundert, als man sich ausgerechnet an mich wandte, um das Wörterbuch der Polizei mit Begriffen zum religiösen Ausländerextremismus zu bestücken und mir darüber hinaus auch noch komplett freie Hand zugestand. Dies ist allerdings wohl vor allem dem Herausgeber Prof. Martin H. W. Möllers geschuldet, ein Mann mit aufrechter Gesinnung und Rückgrat, was heute nicht häufig anzutreffen ist.

Liebe Grüße

Kh. K. W.-Kh.

RE: Katholischer Fundamentalismus | 19.01.2015 | 20:29

Was soll ich denn zurücknehmen, beim Datum ist mir tatsächlich ein Irrtum unterlaufen, da habe ich wohl zwei Ereignisse versehentlich miteinander vermengt, die Entsendung Lefèbvres nach Westafrika, genauer Gabun, und seine Bischofsweihe 1947, die ebenfalls für Westafrika galt, wo er bis 1960 verweilte. Nun, diesen Fehler habe ich korrigiert, alle anderen Aussagen habe ich aus seriösen Quellen belegt.

Ich finde Ihre Drohung wirklich amüsant, ich hatte immer erwartet, dass die erste Drohung aus den Kreisen islamischer Fundamentalisten an mich gerichtet wird, nun kommt sie aus dem Kreise christlicher Fundamentalisten. Es ist immer wieder schön zuzusehen, wie sich eine Fundamentalwahrheit zusehends bestätigt: Es bedarf keiner großen Mühe, Fanatiker zu entlarven, man braucht ihnen nur dabei zuzusehen, wie sie sich selbst demontieren, weswegen ich mir ausdrücklich wünsche, dass Ihre Drohung nicht von der Redaktion des Freitag-Blogs gelöscht wird.